Morgan May Treuil [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to the Am I Doing this Right Podcast. We're your hosts, Morgan and Leslie, and we are in our kind of summertime summertime series. Time series. So we've got, like, a fun episode for you guys today, but we've been starting off with this fun summertime. This is like beginning segment where you guys write in about your situations and we provide expert advice.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:28]:
We provide really good or really average advice.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:31]:
Yes. Yeah, we. It's mostly just for fun. We're not trying to be experts at all in this. So if you. If you sense that you're sensing incorrectly.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:39]:
Yes. And if you're listening right now and you're like, I have a situation that I want them to talk about. Dms on Instagram @ Am I doing this right? Or you can email us at Am I doing this podcast gmail.com.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:50]:
Yeah. And we'll keep everything anonymous.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:52]:
Yeah. To be honest, a lot of you guys had some, like, serious ones, so we're going to. This one's not that serious, though.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:59]:
Okay. This one's.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:00]:
This one's kind of like in the middle.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:01]:
Okay.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:02]:
I kind of thought they'd be a little.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:03]:
Wait, really? There were some, like, serious ones? Like, some, like, some.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:06]:
Only a couple.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:08]:
If. If this is a crisis, hang up and call 911-911-OR.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:13]:
Or your therapist send us what happens.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:15]:
Or. Or a clinic, clinical psych, psychologist or something.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:18]:
Yes, I say that, but it wasn't like they were pouring in, so.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:24]:
People really needed our help.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:26]:
It's like when you ask, like, hey, can I give you guys advice? And people don't want to.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:30]:
They don't want to know.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:32]:
There were some. Okay, here's one that we got. So the debate of being a working mom or a stay at home mom. I struggle with really loving my career, but having a really hard time at being okay with someone else taking care of my kids the majority of the day. Would love to be the best mom I can be one day, but do not want to wish those young years away. What do you guys think? I feel like we're like, as mothers.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:59]:
As mothers with children on the ground. What we could. No, I do. I do feel like I've had this thought in my head, especially right. Right now as I'm growing a child.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:09]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:10]:
There's a lot of pressure surrounding women to get a lot of things right.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:16]:
So you guys, Morgan says women like women. Not women, women.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:21]:
She said women, women, women, women, women.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:25]:
Sorry, keep going.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:26]:
But there's a lot of. I feel like there's a lot of pressure Surrounding decisions like this, people think there's one right way to do it and I don't know that there is one right way to do it. Did you, did your mom stay at home or did she work?
Leslie Johnston [00:02:39]:
My mom, the majority of the time stayed at home. There were four of us too, so there was a lot of children. And my dad worked full time, so.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:50]:
So my mom, I, again, I'm one of three, so not far behind you guys. And my dad worked full time. My mom stayed at home for my young years, but I do remember her going back to work full time. It was in ministry, so it was a little different than maybe just a traditional full time job. When I was probably in high school is when I remember that. Yeah, so I, I feel like, yeah, I don't know, like I, and I think about this for myself too because to relate to the person talking, I think both of us would say that we love our jobs and love to work. Like up till, up until this point in my life that has been probably the, the key identification factor for me. How I would describe myself as somebody who loves to work.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:34]:
So the idea of, of giving that part of myself up when a child comes feels very scary. So I will acknowledge that, that, that's hard. And then there's also that equal desire of I want to make sure that if I'm able to be home with kids so that they have that experience of, you know, a mom who's with them all the time. That's also a desire. Yeah, there's this, there's this not. It's like a disclaimer. I should say that not everybody has the flexibility to choose like some people. It's a situation where they are a mom and they also have to work full time because that's how you make ends meet.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:17]:
And I think one big statement we can make is that makes you an awesome mom. There's no like in, in this, in this conversation. I don't believe there are like lesser moms or greater moms because of your ability to stay at home with your kids or not. I think that life has so many different circumstances that make it to where you do the best that you can with what you have. And often times the best that you can with what you have for your kid is to be someone who works and brings an income. What does that sound?
Leslie Johnston [00:04:49]:
I don't know. I feel like a helicopter.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:51]:
It sounds like a helicopter going to.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:52]:
Crash into our building right now. What is, what is that our listeners are going to be like?
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:00]:
It literally sounds like a, a Helicopter it.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:04]:
But like so low, like our, our roof was shaking.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:07]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:09]:
It's gone now.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:11]:
Whoever it took is gone now. All that to say a long winded way of saying the, the, the most right thing you can do for yourself and for your family is the thing that you have to do. So if you are in a situation where you're like, well, now I feel mom guilt because I didn't even have the choice to stay at home or not stay at home. No, the best thing you can do is. Is the best thing that you can do for your family.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:34]:
Exactly. And it's like, what do you have peace moving forward in, like. Yeah, if I know. I talked to a mom the other day, an incredible mom of a young little kid. And she was like, I'm a better person when I get to work. Like, she's like, when I can have my time where like I work. And they also, I. I don't know their situation.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:54]:
She may need to work, but she's like, I actually love being able to work and love being a mom. And it's so hard to carry those two things. But she's like, we're making it work and it works for our family. And so to me, I'm like, some people I think you can love. Like, I think we were also made to work. Now let me be clear. I think we were made to work. And I think being a mom is.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:14]:
Working is work. It's actually a full time job where you are always on and you don't get to like leave your job and go back home. So I would say being a mom is probably the hardest job.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:25]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:25]:
So I wouldn't even say like, oh, you're working either way. Yeah, you're working whether you're working out of the home or in the home. And my dad, he was, he worked full time. Like more than full time. Like, he ran the church, he was at work a ton and then was at church on the weekends. So to me, like, but growing up, like, I can't even think of a time where I was like, oh, my dad felt like an absent dad.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:52]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:53]:
Like, he was like any, any like soccer game, volleyball game, anything I had going on, he was there. So I think if you are going to work or like someday if I want to work and be a mom, I got to make sure I'm like doubled down on like the time that I am home. I'm home. Like, I'm, I'm not on my phone, I'm not like very present. And that's what my dad Did. So that's the one thing that I would love to carry into, like, when I become a mom someday, because I watched my dad do that so well, where, like, there's not a shred of me that's like, oh, he wasn't there for us.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:26]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:07:26]:
But he worked, and he loved working. Like, if my dad was home all the time and the roles were reversed and my mom worked and he was home, he'd probably go crazy. Like, so it was really the best scenario. So if that's you, I would say, like, go with how God wired you, because that's like, I don't. I mean, I would just say if you feel good about it, if you feel like you've prayed about it and you feel at peace about it, do what you feel. Whether that's staying home or working, do it. But, like, know that whatever way you choose, there's, like, give and take on either end.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:58]:
Yeah, I think that's a. That's a great way of putting it. My dad was the same way, worked a lot, and yet I never once felt like he wasn't present. And then for my mom, I would say that when she was at home, I was really glad that she was at home at the age that I was at home, because I was a really anxious kid and needed it. A very, like, always there, always available kind of parent. And I do think there's probably something to be said, not speaking as an experienced mom, but speaking as a kid who is very needy towards their mom, There probably is something to be said for, like, your type of kid. What type of kid you have.
Leslie Johnston [00:08:32]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:32]:
And what season they're in, because they might. It might be a season where they need you more to be in one place, or it might be a season where they don't need you as much.
Leslie Johnston [00:08:40]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:40]:
So I will say I. I desperately needed my mom in the way that she was available to me when I was younger. But then I also will say that a huge reason why I do what I do today and why I'm so passionate about work is because of how I saw her working whenever I was a high school kid. So I do think there is give and take in the sense that, yeah, like, there are pros to staying home, and there are cons to staying home, and there are pros to working, and there are cons to working. But if you are somebody who does hold career and motherhood and you do both of those things, I don't think that that sends a bad message to your child that you are a parent who Works because if anything, your kids are looking to you to decide what their lives will look like and they want to be like you. So you are inspiring a work ethic in your kid by you working. But then I guess, yeah, the trade off is then your home time. You don't necessarily get to come home and you know, become a zombie, dead to the world, a doom scroll.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:40]:
You have to be present and like lock in and engage. So the answer is like, there is not a right or wrong. I think there's a holy spirit conviction.
Leslie Johnston [00:09:50]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:51]:
Analyzing yourself and who you are. I think there's also like a wait and see kind of freedom to where you can have the kid and then decide what you want to do based on that kid's needs.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:03]:
Because you know some moms where it's like, oh, I'm going to work the rest of my life full time and then they have a kid and all of a sudden they're like, I just want to be home. And then I know moms who thought they would be a stay at home mom and they had their kid and they're like, oh no, I actually really do want to work. Like I want to do both.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:18]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:18]:
So it's like, don't stress too much about. Especially if it's not your season yet, I think you can go. You know what, what I've realized more and more is like your feelings and thoughts can change. So it's like right now you can think that it's going to be a certain way, but when you get there you might be like, oh actually. And I also think if you're finding your identity in anything but Jesus, you're gonna find yourself in a bad place. Cause I think if you find your identity, which would be me, find my identity and what I do and kind of like a performance of like, oh, this is my job, this is what I do to perform. If that gets taken away and you're not okay, then I think you have to evaluate that. And same thing, if you're like, I wanna be a stay at home mom and that's my whole identity and it's not in Christ, then you kind of have to look at that too.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:09]:
Because both those things can have good and hard days and times that leave you feeling like now you're in like an identity crisis. So I think establishing that first of like, okay, what is my identity truly in and am I, am I okay if both of these things were stripped away? You know, So I don't know, that's just my thoughts.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:27]:
I think that's A really good gut check. I already feel like motherhood, pre motherhood is a mental gymnastics game of try not to beat yourself up for what you don't do. Right. And I'm only in the phase of, like, fuel your body. Right. And take your prenatal vitamins so you can grow a healthy baby. That's the phase that I'm in. And there is already mom guilt that you have to, like, wade through because of how you are or are not taking care of your body.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:56]:
I can only imagine that once motherhood starts, like when the baby's on the ground. Women probably struggle a lot with performance based identity issues. And it hits close to home because a lot of your performance reviews you're giving yourself have to do with your relationships. Am I being a good mom? Am I being a good wife? And so I think the identity question is huge. And it might even need to be a daily question to ask so that you're not finding yourself constantly totally measuring yourself that way, because that's just a. A death trap. I don't think it ends anywhere good.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:31]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:32]:
So.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:32]:
And also for people who are like, oh, I feel guilty about whether I want to be at home or at work.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:38]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:38]:
There are so many. Like, if you go and ask all your favorite people in the world, oh, was your parent or was your mom a stay at home mom or a working mom? Or was your. You just ask all of them. It. I. I swear it'll be 50. 50.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:51]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:52]:
Great kids come from working parents. Great kids come from parents who both parents stay at home and homeschooled. Whatever. I think, like, either side, you have incredible kids that come out of it. And to be honest, you don't have enough control.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:05]:
No.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:05]:
To produce a perfect child.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:06]:
No, you don't. You have to be giving yourself way too much power.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:09]:
Yes. Yeah. Not that you shouldn't be a great parent, but it's like you. You really don't have necessarily all the control you think you have. So let that rule put a weight off your shoulders.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:19]:
Take the weight off your shoulders.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:20]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:21]:
Relax a little bit. It is. It is a big thing.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:23]:
It is a big thing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:24]:
It doesn't need to be like, your children's lives.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:28]:
Yes. It's not like, am I choosing to have a good child or a bad. Yeah, exactly. Okay, well, today we're gonna jump into a topic that I don't think we've talked a ton about.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:38]:
I don't think we have either.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:40]:
Maybe. Did we talk about purity, culture?
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:42]:
We were in a meeting earlier where I had hair Sticking out the back of my hat. And I know that you knew about it because I got back to the office and I looked in the mirror and I was like, freaking. Leslie didn't tell me that I was in a meeting with hair sticking out the back of my hat.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:55]:
Okay. I don't know if this happens to anybody else, but maybe because betrayal. No, because I don't care. Like, if. If there was something wrong with your appearance. You don't know whether. I don't. I don't like, it doesn't matter to me.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:09]:
So it's like, it almost like glazes over. But you know what? I did see it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:14]:
I know it was.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:15]:
I remember in the meeting, I looked over to you and I'm like, oh, her hair is like sticking a. Just a tad.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:20]:
Just a little bit out of her hat. But I already told you that I was unhappy with my outfit choice that day.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:25]:
But your outfit's so cute.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:26]:
It's just. It was.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:28]:
Anyways, your sweatshirt was on and it was a really cute, like, it was a cute look.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:32]:
No, it's not. No, it's not.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:33]:
But sometimes, like, something will be like out of place on somebody and it's like, I notice, but not even in like a mean. I'm just genuinely. It doesn't even come to mind to.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:42]:
Tell them it's not. You don't have a critical eye on.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:44]:
It if something goes in your teeth. I would tell you, cuz that's like I trained myself. You have to tell them that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:48]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:48]:
But the hair, I did see it, but it wasn't a big deal. It was not a big deal.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:55]:
Yeah. We have not talked about this today. We have not talked about this ever. We've talked around this, but we haven't talked about this.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:00]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:02]:
Do you want to say boundaries? Yeah. And we're talking like physical boundaries. So. Okay. So we have a variety of listeners. This talk is maybe more geared towards the people listening who are dating.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:15]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:16]:
And in premarital relationships. But if you are married, then I don't know that this is a bad episode to listen to because I. You have friends that are still dating or maybe you have children that are dating.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:28]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:28]:
And I think these are good questions and conversations to have this. To me, I want to hear your experience with, like, how you. When was the first time that you heard someone teach you about boundaries and what. What were they telling you to do? Because I feel like everybody has very different experiences with this.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:48]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:49]:
Depending on what era of youth group you grew up in or if you grew up in the church or not grew up in the church. I think it's just different for everybody.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:58]:
Mine was like a middle school retreat, like a relationships retreat that we went on. And it was great. Like, it was awesome. My youth critters, my youth leaders were awesome. But it was very. Like, they gave us this booklet that, like, you had to write. There was like a. Like a graph.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:17]:
And it was like, single. And then it was like you're talking to someone, you're dating, you're married, whatever.
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:23]:
Like, all the phases.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:24]:
And then it had every physical act you could do listed, and you had to. Yes, listed. And then it was like you circled. Where in, like, the span of your relationship would you start doing these things?
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:34]:
So then it was, like, interesting.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:36]:
The first one was like a side hug, and I'm like, oh, dating. Like, I'm like in seventh grade, sixth grade maybe. And I'm like, oh, dating. And then the second one's like, hold hands and I'm like, oh, probably. Yeah, dating. And then it was like a full frontal hug. I'm like, engaged. Like, we're never hugging.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:54]:
So I feel like my. My first thoughts, whether that was good or bad, was like, I think I was just very innocent. Like, I just.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:02]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:17:02]:
I don't know. My first experience was very. It was like a scare tactic.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:06]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:17:06]:
And it. Oh. Actually, my first experience was at a summer camp, which I loved, but they would have us watch these videos that were like STD awareness videos at church summer camp.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:21]:
Sounds like some public school stuff.
Leslie Johnston [00:17:22]:
It was like Pam Stenzel or something. And it was. I'm sure there's someone listening right now who's like, I've seen. Seen it. It was like a series of videos where she's. It was basically like, if you have sex, you're gonna die.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:34]:
Oh, my gosh. So it was like a mixture of you. You are really like you. You were taught from a very young age boundaries and. Yes, sexes. Sex leads to STDs.
Leslie Johnston [00:17:48]:
Oh, yes. I had so much knowledge going into my first relationship. What about you?
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:55]:
Probably similar. Like, was in public school. So did all of the, like, actual, like, sex ed courses that remind me of kind of what you went through in that way. And it was all abstinence, which is funny because that's just a. I was in public school. Very different time now in public school, I'm sure, and how they teach sex education. But I feel like I was getting it from both sides. Like, abstinence at school, abstinence from church.
Morgan May Treuil [00:18:20]:
One thing I think that was Funny. We had a. We had a youth group with a very intense culture surrounding all things. I would say intense in a good way where, like, we were intense about spiritual growth and Bible reading and accountability and mentorship and all these things. So it felt like a lot of the kids that I went to high school with and or got saved around the same time. It feels like we all learn from an early age how to really grow and love Jesus. There's also some intensity about it where I feel like, you know, there were certain traditions, I guess is the right word or just like cultural things we did that were really intense, especially surrounding dating that I don't know that everybody was doing or like, what that everybody was doing the same way. Like, and I don't even know if I have a good example for it other than like, you know, I think everybody had the whole like, DTR thing, like, define the relationship.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:14]:
But there was almost like a formula. I feel like that. That became normal within our youth group time.
Leslie Johnston [00:19:21]:
Yes. Like, when you start dating some, it was like, it was like, have you sat down and talked about your boundaries?
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:26]:
Like, your boundaries and like, like you're like. It was like, this is how the conversations play out and this is what it means to be pursued. And he needs to ask you on this date by this time and he needs to bring you this and talk to your parents at that. Like, it almost felt so calculated. Kind of like that graph maybe a little bit. But like it was an equation. And I think it set me up a little bit for failure because when I got away from that setting and into like college, real world setting, I think none of it looked the same.
Leslie Johnston [00:19:56]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:57]:
And so I didn't know. I felt like my location had changed and now I didn't know what to do with myself. You know, like, it was almost like it wasn't normalized enough or like real world applied enough for me to know what to do with dating outside of like, hyper Christian circles.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:14]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:15]:
And so, yeah, I feel like I had all the same experiences of like, it was scary, it was bad. I feel like I had this one equation or method for how it should work, but then when it started to go off script, I don't even know what to do from here. I know. And I feel like that probably got me into some trouble.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:34]:
Yes. So, yeah, that is one thing I wish that maybe when you're younger and some of it's like, obviously like age appropriate stuff, but I do kind of wish that it wasn't so only heavy on the side of like, well, don't get involved too early or don't pass this line. Or the classic phrase are like, well, don't see how close you can get to the line. See how far away you can get from it. I'm like, well, if I'm getting so far, it won't even be a relationship.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:03]:
Yeah, yeah, but lots of don'ts.
Leslie Johnston [00:21:05]:
Lots of don'ts and not enough. Like, hey, when you feel like you've gone too far, here's how to like go about this the right way or here's how. I wish there was more of that. I think that is true.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:17]:
I remember all of the don't conversations. I don't remember anything that happened after the line was crossed. Like, I don't remember. And maybe it's because my brain just like wasn't turned on to hear those things because I hadn't made those mistakes yet.
Leslie Johnston [00:21:29]:
True.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:30]:
Or maybe they weren't talked about. But it does not feel like I didn't. I had it in the recesses of my brain what I shouldn't do. I didn't have it in the recesses of my brain. What do I do now that I've missed it up?
Leslie Johnston [00:21:41]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:42]:
And like, how do you come back from shame or re. Establish your boundaries or things like that?
Leslie Johnston [00:21:47]:
So did you ever have like, for me, I always heard from like my youth leaders and stuff, like if the guy doesn't bring up boundaries, then like it's a red flag or something.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:59]:
This is, this is actually kind of off topic, but, but also interesting. And maybe you and I have talked about this before, but with all of this, like, boundaries, you know, here's how, here's how a healthy relationship starts. Here's how a healthy relationship ends. There was a lot of pressure put on the guy to lead, which I'm not making a comment about that one way or the other, but it, it really felt like a Christian guy only leads in this one way and if it doesn't look like this one way, then he's not a good Christian guy. And I do feel like that was kind of a miss because I, I have met lots of great Christian men, all who love the Lord but who lead things in different ways. And a lot of it's personality type too. So I do feel like I wrote a lot of people off that didn't adhere to like these very strict guidelines of how a guy should initiate or you know, he should be praying for your relationship or he should be asking you questions about how you're growing. I don't know, like there was like all these different little things that I was taught that good godly Christian men did.
Morgan May Treuil [00:23:11]:
And then when they didn't do those in the way that I thought that they should, it was like a written off kind of thing.
Leslie Johnston [00:23:17]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:23:18]:
And I don't know if that was fair.
Leslie Johnston [00:23:19]:
Yeah. But, well, I think that in my mind going into dating, because so much was talked about boundaries and not enough about, which again, maybe they said these things and I just didn't hear it. But not as much like, hey, what are the qualities of a guy that you really should be looking for? And like, what are the. Yeah, like a well rounded person. To me, I felt like I went into dating and being like, okay, well, it's like week two and they haven't talked to me about boundaries. This is a terrible guy. Or if they did, then I'm like, this is the greatest guy in the entire world that he wants to talk about boundaries. But then in like seven other areas.
Morgan May Treuil [00:23:53]:
It was like, not good.
Leslie Johnston [00:23:54]:
Not a great guy. And so I do think, yeah, sometimes. Yeah, there's just trickiness to the boundary conversation.
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:01]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:24:02]:
But did you ever have like a boundary conversation with a guy while dating?
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:06]:
Yes, I think most, most we had conversations about boundaries. And yeah, I would say the conversations about boundaries are very different than actually putting things in place to respect boundaries. I know that you have to have the conversation in order to have the action steps, but I do feel like, at least in my experiences, conversations were had. Not a lot of action steps were ever put in place.
Leslie Johnston [00:24:37]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:38]:
Therefore, the conversations weren't really worth much. At least it felt like that in my experience. Did you have conversations with people that you dated about that?
Leslie Johnston [00:24:45]:
Yeah, I felt like a lot of them I had initiated a little bit, but some of them they did. And yeah, I felt like, yeah, they were all good. Like well intentioned, like, we're not gonna do this.
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:58]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:24:59]:
But I actually was raised at that same camp. They taught us. Let me see if I can remember it. It was like four on the floor. So it was like all four feet need to be on the floor at.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:12]:
All times before you and the. You and the person you. All four of yours.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:17]:
Oh, yeah. No, no, no, no. All four feet are on the floor.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:21]:
Yes, that makes sense.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:23]:
It was like clothes on. Like, clothes don't come off. It was so funny. And we used to laugh so hard about it that when they used to say it and I'm just like, oh, my gosh, that's crazy.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:32]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:32]:
But it is kind of funny. Like, you're right. People talk about Benji's like, oh, well, we're not going to have sex. And they kind of leave it at that. But then you're like, that's not really setting you up for success.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:42]:
Yeah. Because I think. I think that that takes out what we don't understand at that age, probably.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:49]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:49]:
Which is that purity has a lot to do with your physical body, but it also has a lot to do with your mind. And there are many ways to exit the purity realm without having sex.
Leslie Johnston [00:26:01]:
Exactly.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:01]:
Like my mom used to say we had. She led a Bible study for our. For, like, a bunch of middle school girls, all friends of mine. And when we used to talk about boundaries and dating, she used to be like, just sit up. Just keep sitting up. Never lay down. Always sit up. And it was really good advice because lots of bad things happen.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:19]:
Not bad things. And that's probably honestly some vocab we have to change, because sex is not a bad thing. Sex is a great thing. And it can be distorted, if not, like, if not held in marriage.
Leslie Johnston [00:26:33]:
Yeah, but.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:34]:
Yeah, but I remember thinking, like, okay, as long as I sit up, I'm good. And then there are so many situations in which I was sitting up and I was still not good. And so I just think, like, totally. We probably. We probably don't do ourselves or our children or our young friends any favors when it talk. When it. When it comes to, like, boundary conversations. If we're just talking about, like, the logistics of what and we're not talking about why.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:59]:
And I think I would have probably been one of those kids that was. Was more inspired towards the why than the actual mechanics of what. Because you can find your way around.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:11]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:12]:
Lots of logistics.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:14]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:14]:
A loophole. You can find a loophole surrounding four on the floor.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:17]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:18]:
Clothes on. You can find all the loopholes. And so I just. Yeah. I would be curious to know for you, because we both. We both dated younger, but we also both dated in our, like, late 20s, early 30s. How your process of starting a dating relationship with somebody and establishing physical boundaries has changed from when you were, like, more young, more naive.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:42]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:43]:
To who you are now, which is a more experienced, like, fully fleshed out person.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:48]:
Yeah. I would say kind of like what you just said. Like, there needs to be a why instead of just a what. Like, we can talk about boundaries all day, but it's like, if really in the moment, if you're like, oh, I'm just. I'm just, like, calculating my mind what the boundary is, I don't think that's enough. Like, if you've ever been. If you've ever dated anyone and you've been in a spot where you're like, ooh, I think I'm gonna cross a line here.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:16]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:28:16]:
You know that, like, it's way more difficult to decide in that moment than it is beforehand. So to me, I feel like, two things that I've learned. The first is, like, confusing intimacy and commitment, like, and what I felt like. There were a lot of times that I felt like, oh, this will make us closer. This will make us. This will make us more connected and more committed. And it was like, no, that's not always the case. And I found myself a lot of times, especially, like, in, like, early college, feeling like, oh, I'm crossing some lines here, but I really want this person.
Leslie Johnston [00:29:04]:
Like, I want to date them. Like, I want these things, and it wasn't the right guy, and that was part of it, but it was like, oh, this person is like, you're just confusing. Like, oh, I want this relationship to work. So I feel like I need to cross some boundaries because I want this to work.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:24]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:29:24]:
And you may not be thinking that in the moment, but I think if you're in a relationship now and you feel like you're crossing lines and you're almost, like, unsteady in your relationship, that's like, just the trickiest combo because you're like. I think a lot when I was younger was like, oh, number one, it felt like, oh, I'm crossing some lines because I really like this person. I want this to progress. And I felt like that's what is progressing a relationship, which wasn't true. And feeling like, oh, I. And also, I was, like, kind of the church kid. Like, my high school boyfriend used to call me church. His friends all called me church girl because I was like, literally the church girl.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:06]:
The church girl.
Leslie Johnston [00:30:08]:
I think a little bit of me was like, oh, I don't want to appear. Like, I'm just churchy, and I have, like, no experience in dating or anything like that. And so I think sometimes I just think Satan can get in your mind, and he can warp a scenario where you start to think to yourself, like, oh, well, this will make me, like, when I was younger, it's like, this will make me older. This will make me, like, more experienced, more. Like, I have. I'm not just, like, the church girl.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:32]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:30:33]:
And I wish I could go back and be like, that is so stupid. Like, that's so dumb. Like, don't do that for that sake. Yeah. So I don't know, those are kind of random.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:42]:
No, no, that's. That's really good. That's. That's so good. I think that what we have to remember going into dating relationships is that you are wired for intimacy. So it's funny because so much of our, you know, dating talks and things that people told us before we started dating were, you know, this is bad or this is bad outside of marriage, so don't do this. And so you go into it thinking, oh, it's going to be this really clear, clean cut experience where I'm presented with a wrong option and a right option and I get to choose between the two. Yeah, but actually that's usually not how it works because sometimes some of the craftiness of the enemy would be to get you in a situation where there's an option here sitting out there for you that you're actually made by God to want to do.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:31]:
And yet it's placed in the wrong context. So the enemy can kind of help distort it. And I think that, yeah, like, we go into the boundary efforts and we are, we are mistaken in thinking like, okay, well, it's going to be really easy for me to not fall into this because if it's wrong, I won't want to do it. And intimacy is not a wrong thing. Like your body is designed to want it. And that's why dating, while dating can be awesome. Dating can also be really dangerous because you're putting yourself in a relationship to get to know somebody the second that it becomes romantic.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:10]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:10]:
I do think there's like an intrinsic part of your being that starts to associate like romantic relationships with physical intimacy. Parts of your relationship, because you're a person that's designed to do that.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:23]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:23]:
And so I think that, yeah, like, I guess the point of what I'm saying is just that I don't, I don't know that it's ever a clean cut experience of I'm gonna be in this situation, I'm gonna know right versus wrong. I actually think it's more of a given to realize I'm going to be in situations where I'm going to want to do something that feels very natural to who I am. So I'm going to have to fight on the front end to make sure I'm not putting myself in situations where I can merge, like things that don't need to be merged yet. Because like you said, like, I was the same way. I totally used physical intimacy as a bonding tool.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:06]:
Right.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:06]:
Like if something wasn't working in the relationship. Well, let's not talk, let's just make out instead. Or if I sense that the relationship was done but I wasn't ready for it to be done because I was worried that God didn't have something else in store. Then I resorted to more physical intimacy as a way to feel like there was still something there. Because where we didn't connect verbally, we could still connect physically. And so there. And there's a lot of danger in that because at the end of the day, if you get to the end of your dating relationship and all you have is physical intimacy and nothing else, it's actually not the makings of a good marriage.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:43]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:43]:
And you just bonded with somebody in a physical way that is not going to be your spouse. So I think. Yeah. I think all. Yeah. The whole point of that is it's not, it's not going to be as easy as you think it's going to be. Yes. And as you get older then I think you get smarter in some ways because of experience.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:05]:
But you're also more free to do what you want to do. Like.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:08]:
Yes. Because you're not living at your parents house. You don't have these rules. Like there's no rules when you're living out on your own. Like after your whatever age you move out of your parents house.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:19]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:19]:
And maybe your parents didn't even have rules.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:21]:
So. Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:21]:
That could be part of it. I know it is interesting because there's like nothing in the Bible about dating because they didn't date back then. It was like, oh, you the cultural norm Today I exchanged 40 camels for you and now you're my, my husband or my wife.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:37]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:37]:
And yeah. So I think that there's. It's a little confusing. Like we're not. I think that that's what's hard when you grow up as a Christian and you want to date the right way. It's hard to date the right way when like there's really not a ton in the Bible about dating.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:54]:
The right way of dating.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:55]:
Yes. But I do think there's a lot in the Bible about intimacy and how you should guard yourself.
Morgan May Treuil [00:35:04]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:04]:
From that before you're married. And I think so often I was like, oh, this is fear based. This is like, oh no, I shouldn't. Like God just has these set rules that I shouldn't cross. But you're right. It's like in the design though that's like intimacy is such a good thing. So I think we make the mistake. At least growing up I made the mistake.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:26]:
Of like, oh, sex is bad, intimacy is bad. Like, these are bad things to want. But when you get married, hopefully it flips overnight in your mind. And all of a sudden now you can have sex and do everything, and you're supposed to somehow rewire your brain to thinking, this is good. And I have so many friends who are like, that was so hard. Like, so hard to flip the switch and not feel guilty after having sex with my husband.
Morgan May Treuil [00:35:52]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:52]:
And so I think that's really interesting. I think now is the time, if you're dating, to. To go, okay, how can I rewire my mind to not think of sex and intimacy as a bad thing? It's just that I need to do this in God's design.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:06]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:36:07]:
That's where the. That's where the good part of it comes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:09]:
I wonder what it would look like if you rephrase the internal. Because. Because I think the flip side of that, like, I marry couples who get married and then they get guilty over sex because they were always taught that it was wrong.
Leslie Johnston [00:36:19]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:19]:
I think the same mind, like, trap can happen when you're dating and you think, oh, sex is wrong, sex is wrong, sex is wrong. Then you find yourself in a situation where you're really tempted towards it because it's actually not wrong.
Leslie Johnston [00:36:36]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:36]:
For you to want that. It's just the wrong situation. And then you get trapped in this shame spiral after the fact of, like, hating yourself or wanting something you shouldn't have, when that's actually not the narrative. It's not that you shouldn't want that. It's actually like, wow, it's a really good thing that I want that I need to be careful with where I put it.
Leslie Johnston [00:36:55]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:56]:
And so I think that maybe we have to reframe the boundaries narrative of, like, not, hey, sex is bad. I need to avoid it pre marriage. But no, actually, sex and intimacy and the desires that I feel are really good things. That means I have to be way more protective about them, but because I care about them so much and because they are such good things. I think it's your dad who says something really smart and was very compelling for me when I was dating because and. And Benji and I are transparent about this. When I started dating Benji, that's probably the most difficult season of physical boundary keeping that I have ever had. And I actually think it's because I probably knew subconsciously that he was my husband.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:46]:
And so then I think it became immediately like, why is this taking so long? And why would we not get to do those things? And so I remember thinking that, you know, there were certain things we did well, certain things we didn't do well. But. But there was a conversation that we had about something that we heard your dad say in a message where it was like, the reason you don't have sex before marriage is. Is because you're training yourself to know that sex is for marriage. And it was like, oh, that makes total sense. I'm training myself to know this is something a husband and a wife do together. If I know this is something that a husband and wife do together, then once I am a husband and wife in our husband and wife unit is the only place we will have sex. It's like, it's less about.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:33]:
I mean, obviously it's about being holy and being obedient to what God has said, but there's a whole other aspect to it to where, like, you have to train your brain to know that sex is not a casual thing.
Leslie Johnston [00:38:42]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:42]:
It's not a casual thing that can be had with everybody. Because then when you're married, it's still a casual thing that can be had with everybody. Like, your. Your brain and your body combination doesn't just, like, immediately snap into some kind of marriage and commitment mode, because the way that you held sex before marriage is the way that you will hold sex after marriage. And so I was like, oh, that's a really compelling reason. Like, this needs to be protected. Because in the context of marriage in it is beautiful and life transformative, and it's bonding and it's protective. It's all of those things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:15]:
So the idea here is it's not a bad thing you have to avoid. It's actually a really important thing that's a huge part of who you are that you have to protect.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:24]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:24]:
And so with that narrative, it feels like we have to enter into the boundaries conversation because then you're not beating yourself up and taking yourself out of the fun of certain things.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:34]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:34]:
You're, like, setting yourself up for success, to preserve this really good thing.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:39]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:39]:
For when it's meant to be most good.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:41]:
I love that. That is really smart. Because you're right. It's like a different way to look at boundaries.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:45]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:39:46]:
It's not just like a meaningless thing. Or if you are going to marry that person, you're like, maybe you're engaged, and you're like, why does it matter? Like, literally, it's just a matter of months till I'm married. But you're right, it is like, it's almost promising something to the other person. Too. Like, I respect you enough. I respect myself enough that this. I'm gonna do this the way that God intended to.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:05]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:06]:
Because I don't plan on doing this outside of the way God intended to later on.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:10]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:10]:
And so I know he always talks about. He's like, what do you think? Like, don't be surprised if he sleeps with someone else. When you were sleeping with. While you're dating.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:17]:
Yeah. Cause you're training them and you.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:20]:
That it's casual.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:21]:
Yes. 100%.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:22]:
That's so smart. I also think that when you're dating, you are creating these, like, pathways in your brain to how you view intimacy and how you view sex. Or maybe not even all the way to sex, but how you view, like, I don't know, any. Any side of intimacy. That am I doing this for myself, for, like, gratification for me, or am I doing this, like, with the other person in mind? And I think when someone is either pushing your boundaries past what you're okay with, or you're pushing yours, or you're pushing, you know, you're pushing theirs as well. I feel like intimacy becomes very, like, selfish before.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:02]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:03]:
Where, like, you talk to a bunch of married couples, and after years and years, they're like, I've had to learn that, like, intimacy is best when you're thinking of the other person.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:10]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:11]:
And when it's not just for you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:13]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:14]:
And so I think that's such a healthy way to view, like, okay, before I'm married, how can I view this in a way where I'm thinking of the other person? Like, I'm not just thinking of me and what I want. And so that's something that I think you have to think through before you get married. Because after marriage, you want a marriage with a person who's thinking of you, that's really smart, not just themselves.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:33]:
So then the way that. That changes the thought is the same. And then pre marriage, that thought of thinking of the other person leads to preserving their purity. And then post marriage, that selfless way of thinking leads to. I'm going to do my best to serve them in all these different ways.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:50]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:51]:
Okay. So. So then this is, like, kind of the complicated question that I don't think people answer with clarity. And I think it probably leads to some missed boundaries. Let's say that you're back. How old were you when you made your graph? Like, middle school.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:04]:
Just like. Yeah, like middle. Seventh grade.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:06]:
So you're back in middle school and you're making your graph Also, no boys.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:10]:
Wanted me to date me in seventh grade. Like, I look at pictures, they probably.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:13]:
Saw your graph and were like, nothing for me here. But I am curious how, because I will say, like, yeah, transparency in order to be helpful. Before I did anything, before I had ever even held hands with a boy, it was very clear to me what was a no and what was a yes. Then after I held hands with the boy. The more you do, the more that things become less clear what you can and can't do.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:43]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:44]:
So how do we know. How do we know what we can and can't do? Because I think we have reduced sex, especially when we're trying to push the boundaries. We reduce sex to this very specific interaction when there's actually lots more to physical intimacy that isn't like sexual intercourse in this one way.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:07]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:08]:
How do we know what is okay before marriage and not okay before marriage? How do we figure that out?
Leslie Johnston [00:43:14]:
I know that's like the million dollar question is like, okay, what actually are the boundaries then?
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:19]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:19]:
And I don't. I feel like it somewhat depends on the person. Now. I say that with probably having used that excuse when I was younger, I'm like, oh, it's just like different for everybody. It's like, I can go whatever I want and this person can do whatever they want. But I do think somewhat you have to take. I think it. Well, you have to have a conversation about it with whoever you're dating.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:42]:
Especially if you're in a relationship. I think beforehand you can set your boundaries, but you have to know yourself enough to be like, okay, and like, well, read enough. And things like in scripture where you're like, oh, this is where I see myself. This is the type of physical relationship I want to have before I'm married. And then talking with the person that you're with, because their boundaries might be way before yours start. Like, certain guys might be like, I really struggle with, like, temptation. I really struggle with this. And if they're in tune enough with themselves to know, like, what their boundaries are, I think then you guys make them together.
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:21]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:21]:
But you make them at whoever's is the furthest from the line, you know?
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:27]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:27]:
Because I've. I've dated people before where some guys were like, oh, I'm like, I'm totally. I'm one guy's like, I promise you, like, we will not have sex. Because, like I said, was in a relationship before that where I felt like I was a little bit not pressured in a really extreme way. But it was definitely something that, like, they wanted to Push my boundaries farther than I wanted to go. And it was actually a great relationship because he was like, we won't, like, I know myself, like I know myself enough to know, like the boundary that I can't cross. And so that was a really cool experience of a relationship that I felt like he did lead that a little bit more. But it was a conversation where we decided like, okay, here's where your boundaries at.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:14]:
And so I think being with a person who knows themself enough to then be able to discuss like, okay, at what point do you reach? Yeah, that didn't give anybody specific boundaries, but I don't know if you have thoughts on that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:45:27]:
Well, I don't know that there are because again, it's like, yeah, like I do think that when, when scripture talks about sexual immorality. Sexual immorality is sexual acts outside of marriage. I would say that, like, there have been times in my life where I've tried to justify it and be like, well, that only talks about sex. But then I still feel like with the Holy Spirit, like I violated that rule even when I didn't have sex. And so I do think a lot of it is conviction based. Right. Like, there have been times where I've been really clear that, hey, I went too far and this was wrong and now I need to, you know, run it back.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:14]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:15]:
But then there's also been times where the actual action itself wasn't anything new. Like it was maybe like kissing, but for like a prolonged period of time. And, and even the prolonged period of time with kissing still felt like I had messed something up. And so I think a lot of it is paying attention to like, what's the Holy Spirit saying and doing and being loving Jesus enough and wanting to preserve that physical purity thing enough to where when you sense that you've gone too far, you actually have the strength to pull back or to say no or to like draw a firm line to leave the situation. Cuz that's also really hard.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:59]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:00]:
I think one thing that's just practical and helpful is if you find yourself in a lot of situations where it's hard to rationalize and it's hard to leave, then that's a good practical, that's a good practical thing to just be like, hey, I can't be in situations that are hard for me to leave. Yeah, right. So like, I need to start placing myself and placing us at restaurants. It sounds so cheesy because we all want to be alone. Like, we want to relax, we want to be on the couch. We want to. Our lives are so busy. I don't always want to be in a restaurant or at a coffee shop.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:36]:
But there is the reality in which, like, restaurants are not that complicated in the sense that you're not going to have sex in a restaurant.
Leslie Johnston [00:47:45]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:45]:
And houses are more complicated in the sense that there are plenty of places to have sex in a house.
Leslie Johnston [00:47:51]:
Right. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:52]:
So there's that part of it.
Leslie Johnston [00:47:54]:
Or you could be like us and we were constantly afraid of getting pregnant even when we were not having sex.
Morgan May Treuil [00:47:59]:
Yes. Or you are afraid of immaculate conception and that helps to fuel your boundaries.
Leslie Johnston [00:48:04]:
Dating people were like, I think that immaculate conception has happened.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:08]:
I think that's because my memaw used to tell me that when I would sit on boys lapse wearing really short shorts that I would get pregnant. And ever since, my dad used to.
Leslie Johnston [00:48:16]:
Tell me, don't ever let a guy put his hand on your leg. I'm like, what? But maybe it's smart and.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:24]:
But even that, like, I think that's why I was so surprised when I got pregnant because in my head, I think I'm still confused about how the anatomy works. What makes a baby. I'm not sure.
Leslie Johnston [00:48:35]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:48:36]:
So, yeah. I think the original point to what I was trying to make though is that I don't know that it's a one size fits all experience. But I do know that anything that broaches, like physical sexual intimacy, which basically includes all body parts in a sexual way.
Leslie Johnston [00:48:59]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:00]:
Is supposed to be a no until marriage.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:03]:
Well, because the. I mean, this verse says, which I was looking it up because I was like, I think I remember this. But it was like, do not awaken love until it's time. And I think that has always been in my head because I used to think like, oh, you just can't have sex. Like, that's.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:18]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:18]:
But people can figure out a lot of ways to have sex without.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:21]:
Actually, I had no idea how much stuff came before sex.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:23]:
Yes. Yes. And I think when you like, turn that part of. I mean, for lack of a better term, turn that part of you on. But like, in that way with that person, it does bind you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:37]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:38]:
To them.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:38]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:39]:
So I mean, that was also in that Pam videos I used to watch at summer camp. It was like, literally showed like the wiring of your brain, like when you're with somebody.
Morgan May Treuil [00:49:47]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:49:48]:
Which again, is such a cool thing in the right context. But then when you. When that relationship has to end or if something goes wrong, like, there's so much untying that has to happen.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:00]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:50:00]:
And it just leaves you, which is so hard to think about when you're in the relationship because you're like, no, this is gonna work. This is gonna be long term. But you just have no idea.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:08]:
Well, I think Barb Wilson, this on the Change. The odd Change the Odds podcast. I don't know when it aired, but I was listening to it this morning. That oxytocin, a bonding chemical released in your brain, is released at three different times for the woman. Once in. In sex. Not one time. But like when.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:27]:
When sex happens for both men and women, the oxytocin chemical that bonds you is released. Breastfeeding and childbirth. Those are, like, these three instances in which a lot of oxytocin enters your body. It's. It's like a chemical scientific fact that you're being bonded to somebody in this way. That's like when it. When she said childbirth and nursing, I remember thinking, like, that is really intimate because those. Like, those.
Morgan May Treuil [00:50:53]:
Those are very. Those two are very intimate things that you would. You would bond with your baby in that way. You feel like it's your family. And there. There's that same bonding chemical released during physical intimacy. That's.
Leslie Johnston [00:51:06]:
That is pretty.
Morgan May Treuil [00:51:06]:
That's a big deal. Yeah, I. I think I didn't want to lose this thought. Shoot. Oh, maybe I did lose it. Oh. I was just gonna say, I think that we. We tend to kind of believe this.
Morgan May Treuil [00:51:25]:
This myth thing that doing a little bit before marriage kind of helps test out chemistry.
Leslie Johnston [00:51:34]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:51:34]:
And things like that. Or that you need to see what that part of the relationship kind of looks and feels like before you fully enter in. Or that thought of, like. Well, there's a lot of stuff that comes before sex. So even if we violate all those other things that come before sex, the actual sex part will be for marriage. And speaking from experience, the actual sexual intercourse part can take a second for that to get figured out once you get married, because it's a little bit more. Not complicated. I think everyone's experience is different.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:10]:
Like, it's not complicated in the sense that you don't know what to do. It's more so, like, people's experiences differ in terms of how easy it is right off the bat. And for lots of people, it takes time for it to become something that you can do. And so it is funny how, like, you enter into marriage and so much of the exploration sexually is the stuff that leads up to.
Leslie Johnston [00:52:33]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:34]:
Sexual intercourse. And for lots of people, those were boundaries that were pushed prior to marriage. So then Once you enter into marriage, the only thing left is the part that. Yeah, very sometimes tricky and painful. Even at first, too.
Leslie Johnston [00:52:50]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:52:50]:
And so I think it's just a reminder that when you get into marriage, it's like the actual sexual intercourse part, at least in some people's experiences, is the part that maybe is the most painful at first. And it makes you think like, oh, that. But that. That isolated event alone can't be all that there is. Because sometimes that doesn't even feel.
Leslie Johnston [00:53:17]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:53:18]:
Like. Like it's the good part. It's all the other stuff that feels like it's the good part, which to me, myth busts the idea that sexual. Like that sex is just sexual intercourse. I think that's really a full body emotional. It's all the lead up. It's the finishing of it. It's like all of those things combined, which was.
Morgan May Treuil [00:53:40]:
Which was hard for me to. To rationalize afterwards, where it's like, oh, I always thought it was just this one thing. And I kept reducing it down to make myself feel better.
Leslie Johnston [00:53:51]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:53:51]:
Reducing it down to just this one action. That one action actually isn't the best part of it all. It's all the other stuff. But we. So what I'm saying is, in your boundaries conversation that you have with your own self, stop segmenting it. Because that, that, that, that if you're segmenting sex, then that means you don't have boundaries around it because you're segmenting it. You're breaking it up into little pieces and you're taking some and you're leaving others.
Leslie Johnston [00:54:18]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:54:19]:
It's not going to serve you well in marriage to break it up like that. And if you are segmenting sex, stop doing that and just get really clear about your boundaries of like, how do I make it to where I avoid the larger action of sex altogether? Not avoid it, but preserve it for when it's time, I guess.
Leslie Johnston [00:54:37]:
True. Because imagine then when you get married how much better that experience is instead of like, oh, shoot, let's just be clear. Most. And I'm not married yet, Morgan is. Most people that we know who have gotten married, sex is not great at first. At first?
Morgan May Treuil [00:54:55]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:54:56]:
Like, it takes time.
Morgan May Treuil [00:54:57]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:54:58]:
I think that's like the biggest lie. And I think, I hope girls who are listening who are maybe like, newly married or like, oh, thank God. Thank God. Someone else terrified. Yes. And so that's so smart what you just said. I've never thought about that before. Where it's like, oh, no, there's a reason God doesn't Just specifically talk about sex.
Leslie Johnston [00:55:17]:
He talks about, like, kind of the whole thing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:55:20]:
Yeah. And like, even something as simple as, like, being naked.
Leslie Johnston [00:55:24]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:55:24]:
You know what I'm saying? Like, some people have, have segmented that part. It's like, well, that's not sex. That's just being naked together.
Leslie Johnston [00:55:30]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:55:31]:
I think we have to stop doing that because that's a part of the experience.
Leslie Johnston [00:55:35]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:55:35]:
That leads to sex. Like, that's the. It's not just that. I want to stop thinking about it in terms of like, okay, well, I can't be naked with someone before I'm married because if we're naked, then we're gonna have sex.
Leslie Johnston [00:55:46]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:55:47]:
Like, it's not. That's not why you're not naked. Like, yes. Yeah, if you were naked, you might have sex. But we're not saying don't be naked just because being naked leads to having to it. It's like, no, being naked is part of sexual intimacy with somebody. You don't want to have that with all these people. Like, it's the same thing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:04]:
Don't be comfortable being naked with lots of people.
Leslie Johnston [00:56:06]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:07]:
Because then being naked is casual. Then you're just like, you go to work naked. Like, everything's just. Everything's just. So I. Yes. Like, yeah, we can't break it up like that. It's got to be one whole thing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:18]:
And if it's one whole thing, you can preserve that and protect it because it's important. Not because it's bad for you.
Leslie Johnston [00:56:25]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:25]:
But because it's important for you to have it. And it's in the way, in the fullness that it was created for you to have it in.
Leslie Johnston [00:56:31]:
Yes. And there has to be something said. I've never heard a married person go, man, I wish that I had done more before I got married. No, like, no.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:41]:
You only hear people say that what they did before, they had to, like, figure out how to deal with afterwards.
Leslie Johnston [00:56:48]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:56:48]:
That's all you hear.
Leslie Johnston [00:56:50]:
I think that's the hard part. And this is not like a scare thing. I think this is just for me, like a sobering thing where I always go, okay, every, like, sinful thing I do, not even just related to sex. There unfortunately is somewhat of a consequence.
Morgan May Treuil [00:57:04]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:57:05]:
Thankfully, Jesus died for all of our sins. That's all covered. So I'm not saying this like in a shame inducing way, but it's like I remember times where like, I've gone too far on something and I'm like, oh, I'm going to have to, like, I'm gonna have to deal with this. Like, I'm gonna. This is gonna come up sometime. And it has, like, even with, like, boyfriends before, like, things that I've had to work through or things that just have been difficult, and I'm like, oh, yeah, there's a reason why God did it this way. God's not trying to ruin our fun or be like, oh, you can't do this, you can't do that. It's like, no, he knows how our minds work, and he's actually trying to protect you from having to go through all of that unwiring and all of the, like, the shame and the guilt and all the things that naturally come with that.
Leslie Johnston [00:57:50]:
Yeah, I think he's trying to protect us from it. And so if you can think of it that way, instead of, oh, God's up there, and every time I do something wrong, he's just like, oh, you messed up. I don't think God's doing that at all. No, I think God's more like, oh, man. Like, I've got a design that I want for you. Yeah, like, would you trust me in that? And then. Which leads to bigger things. Like, do you trust God? I think we try to control so much stuff, and I think God's going like, hey, how can you let go of some of these things and actually trust that? Like, my way is better.
Morgan May Treuil [00:58:22]:
So good. So I wish the one. I wish one thing people said with. With the boundaries conversation is once you break it, that doesn't mean that you have to throw in the towel and full send it in the opposite direction. Because sometimes I think people can. That's like a shame trap with the enemy that if you've broken one part of it, then, okay, well, now your purity is messed up forever. So just do whatever you want because at this point, it's a wash. Yeah, that's not true.
Morgan May Treuil [00:58:52]:
Like, there's. There is so much. You said. Jesus died for your sins. There is redemption and healing in God, and so you are able to. To experience restoration after all physical intimacy, shortcomings and mistakes after all of that.
Leslie Johnston [00:59:08]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:59:08]:
I had a friend once who described it in a really cool way. She had already had sex and had come back from that and was living differently. And the way that she talked about it was very different and very refreshing. She didn't talk about her past. Like, it was something that she was, like, still mad at herself or shameful of. She didn't hate that part of herself. Like, she still spoke really positively about sex and was still excited to have sex in the future, but just had it placed in a totally different category of, like, this is a future thing for me and my spouse. And it's just a good reminder, like, you can have all the things that you think you've lost even as you've messed up.
Leslie Johnston [00:59:55]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:59:56]:
Because there's new mercies every day in Christ. So if you're sitting here and you're like, okay, I feel super convicted about the boundaries thing, and I've already messed up in all these areas. There's no reason why. Oh, yeah, you can't turn and change and start over. That's the whole point of the cross.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:12]:
God's like, the expert in that.
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:14]:
He's the expert in that.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:15]:
Great. I'd love for you to start over.
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:17]:
It's the one thing on earth that's like that where it's like a turn and you're back at the starting line.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:21]:
Yeah. So, yeah. Don't be caught up in, like, oh, well, I'm not a virgin anymore, so none of it matters. Like, that's not true.
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:28]:
That's the enemy. That's an enemy narrative, not a God narrative.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:30]:
Yes. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:31]:
God narrative is the opposite. Like, okay, well, I already had sex. Now what? Oh, forgiveness and God's not remembering your sin. God's written you a brand new story. Now you get to live into it.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:43]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [01:00:43]:
That's the opposite narrative.
Leslie Johnston [01:00:45]:
I think, like, a couple things from this conversation that I hope people have gotten out of it is at least that I've gotten out of it is like, number one rewriting in your mind that, like, sex is not bad. Like, this is actually a really good thing. Like, your desire for it's a good thing. Even your struggle with it is a good thing because it's how God wired it.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:06]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:07]:
So it's like, it's not a bad thing. So we need to stop saying it's a bad thing. When you're dating.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:10]:
Yeah, the struggle is good.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:11]:
Yeah, it's a good struggle. But then it's not God condemning you from up above about it. He just has more of a design for it that's better for you.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:21]:
That's great.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:22]:
And then if you have gone further to know that there's still time to do it the right way and that I actually think turning around from doing something that maybe you used to do and doing it a way that God wants you to now, I actually think God is, like, even more proud of that person than the person who never did it in the first place.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:42]:
I think so too.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:43]:
Because how much harder it is to do that.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:44]:
How much harder. Oh. To come back.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:46]:
And I just don't think that's lost on God.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:48]:
No, it's not.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:49]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:50]:
That's great. It. That's the way to end it.
Leslie Johnston [01:01:52]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:53]:
Well, that was really good. Thanks for joining us. This week on Am I Doing this Right?
Leslie Johnston [01:01:56]:
So only hold hands when you're engaged.
Morgan May Treuil [01:01:59]:
No kissing until you're right. That is great. We should talk about that. Some people do that, and that's great. Maybe we should be doing that. Okay. Next week. Bye.