Morgan May Treuil [00:00:00]:
Okay. Welcome back to Am I Doing this Right?
Leslie Johnston [00:00:02]:
We are.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:02]:
This is our third start of the day because we're having a. We are. We were just talking about how exhausted our brains are, actually.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:09]:
Yes, we're. Yeah, we're shooting this literally. I mean, you'll see this on. You'll hear this on probably Monday if you're watching it the day it releases. But this is on 9 11.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:20]:
Yes. Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:22]:
Already kind of a somber day.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:23]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:24]:
After a day that was a crazy day, which we're actually going to talk about.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:27]:
Yeah, that's true. The. The events of time right now mixed with also 911 remembering the horrible tragedy that happened on 911 in New York City, the act of terrorism. All of those things mixed together have made for a very, very foggy. There's a lot happening in our country right now that is really horrific and a lot happening.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:51]:
And then all the effects of that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:52]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:00:53]:
You know, it's just kind of crazy.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:56]:
We'll talk about all that. But anyways, if you notice like a fog or like a different tone. Tone. I think it's because there's a lot going on right now. So we were just. Anyways, so that's why we had to start this episode three times. But what I was. What I was gonna say, though is there is some exciting stuff coming up for.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:12]:
Am I doing this right in that we are moving to a new studio. I won't say when exactly, but it could be as soon as next week or as late as next year.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:21]:
You guys. And the vibes in the new studio are so different.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:24]:
It's gonna feel really different. So if you are a watcher, like, if you go home and like your downtime activity is to put us on your television screen, that scares me a little bit that we can do big television screen. But yeah, the vibes are going to change. So don't get too attached to the color schemes or the fireplace or what you're looking at, because.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:43]:
That's right. Also our chairs, which honestly I'm so excited about because these chairs are so cute. But they are uncomfortable.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:51]:
They're really hard for pregnancy, by the way.
Leslie Johnston [00:01:54]:
Really.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:55]:
I've been looking at videos of me as we've been releasing these. And I'm realizing when you have. Because this is like all lumbar, basically. Like, it's like all lumbar, no upper back. And it really does not help your center of gravity when you've got a lot like a bottom load going on. So I have not loved this chair during this season, but that's Good.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:16]:
That's funny. Well, hey, I have an unpopular opinion. I think it's been a while since I've had an unpopular opinion. I think we've had guests on or so agreeable. It's just been so. Well, it's hard to have like 700 unpopular opinions. @ some point. They do run out.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:30]:
They do. Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:31]:
That's tr. But this is kind of like coming off the birthday season in our small group.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:35]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:36]:
It's like every single person's birthday falls in August and September, which is crazy.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:41]:
Because we have around 16 to 17.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:43]:
People in our group.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:44]:
So that is a heavy concentration of birthday concentration in one spot.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:48]:
It's so fun. I love birthdays. Morgan loves birthdays. So to me I'm like, it's so fun.
Morgan May Treuil [00:02:53]:
Keep it coming.
Leslie Johnston [00:02:54]:
This is a birthday themed one. Kind of. I think there is no worse combination than ice cream and cake or ice cream in any baked item. Like, I don't think ice cream belongs on a brownie. On a piece of cake. Like it. It's just like the worst combination.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:15]:
You think ice cream should be enjoyed by itself.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:17]:
Exclusively by exclusively.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:19]:
And then the brownie or the cookie should be by itself.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:21]:
Totally.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:22]:
But have you ever had like a warm cookie on top of a ice cream?
Leslie Johnston [00:03:27]:
Now I guess I would say a cookie is more okay.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:31]:
Like a warm cookie.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:32]:
I still like a cookie by itself.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:35]:
Yeah, for sure. But you would turn it down, like if it was an option.
Leslie Johnston [00:03:39]:
Okay, I wouldn't turn down a cookie if I'm being 100 honest. But a brownie and ice cream or a even worse ice cream and cake, you're taking like a dry good and. And putting ice cream like a wet thing on it. Yeah, it's gross.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:56]:
I actually had this thought the other night at your birthday dinner because we had for dessert we brought over like Baskin Robbins ice cream and then the crumble cookies of the week. And I think. And then you had like a nothing bunt cake or something. I think because all of the baked goods were not warm.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:10]:
They were all like.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:11]:
Because crumble cookies are not warm. They're like, it's like a novelty cookie. And then the cake wasn't warm and then the ice cream was cold. It felt like a lot of sugar and a lot of cold things.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:21]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:22]:
And I was like, this dessert didn't really hit me. Like, it didn't hit for me. So I agree. I feel like ice cream can stand on its own. But if you're going to do an ice cream and a baked good, it needs to be a Warm, gooey, melty cookie. Like, it's got to be.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:36]:
Here's my only disagreement with that. When it comes to like a brownie.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:39]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:39]:
Because people love, like a warm brownie and ice cream. To me, the ice cream instantly, like, makes the brownie hard and then you're melting the ice cream. And I hate. Maybe, maybe it's a melted ice cream problem. I actually, like, will not eat melted ice cream.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:55]:
Well, you're. I think you're an ice cream connoisseur. Like, you care about the texture of ice cream.
Leslie Johnston [00:04:59]:
I just like, I just like, can't get behind the, the cake that's like spongy.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:04]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:05]:
With ice cream.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:07]:
I agree. I think, I think the, the texture combination and the temperature combinations have thrown me. Yes. Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:13]:
Okay.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:14]:
Those can be really bad. Those can be I.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:16]:
It.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:16]:
And to be honest, I will usually never go for ice cream if there's other dessert options.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:21]:
Same like if there's a cake or.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:23]:
A cookie or a brownie. I'm doing those things before I'm doing ice cream. To me, ice cream doesn't have enough substance for me to feel like. Like I'll eat ice cream and then it's liquefied my stomach. I'm ready to go again. It's like, to me, though, it's why I love frozen yogurt more than I love ice cream, which I think I've said is an. Is as before as an unpopular opinion. And I think because frozen yogurt is all about toppings.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:46]:
Like, it's.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:47]:
Maybe I just like toppings.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:48]:
And I think that's what it is. Like, it's less about the ice cream flavor, it's more about the topping. So when you leave froyo, you leave more full.
Leslie Johnston [00:05:55]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:56]:
Than when you would have done ice cream. And usually when you go to ice cream places and you do toppings, it's like a limited one topping ice cream experience. So it's not filling.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:04]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:05]:
I just don't. I don't care. I would way rather have rose anyways. That's a different unpopular opinion. But yes. I think there's a texture temperature.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:11]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:12]:
Combo issue.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:13]:
I just don't like it.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:14]:
Which is funny because birthdays really that like the, the birthday desserts are ice cream and cake together.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:21]:
Yeah. Like, it doesn't even sound appetizing to me.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:23]:
No, it doesn't. To me it sounds like a nauseous sugar feeling.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:28]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:28]:
Which is like intense.
Leslie Johnston [00:06:30]:
That's funny. Okay, well, let's jump into what we're going to talk about. So I'm actually glad that we are releasing this episode on Monday and not right now because I feel like the Internet is just inundated with everybody's thoughts, opinions, just. It's all very like, noisy and loud right now. And I hope that this episode comes out at a time where maybe people are like, okay, I'm ready to have some just like thoughtful conversations about it and not feel like it's just everybody's so hot right now. Like, it's hard to even talk to people about what's happening because I feel like we're just in such like the peak moment of it. But hopefully this being coming out in a week from now or less than a week from now that maybe it's a little more open.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:26]:
You know, I think you and I make a pretty conscious effort to not engage in conversations surrounding current events as much as we can. Mostly informed. I can think, I can think of one, one episode that we did where we intentionally waded into some of those waters and it was still handled really delicately. And I think that that needs to. We need to speak about why we don't do that. A. Because like you said, we don't consider ourselves to be the ultimate voice on a lot of these things. So I think we're very careful with our voices in that regard.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:02]:
And then number two, I think you and I are really pro unity and really anti division. And it does not feel like you're able to engage in these conversations from a public platform standpoint without immediately going towards division or being perceived by other people as going towards division. And so I feel like we've just been careful with it because I think you and I are very like, level headed, see, see middle ground more than we see polarizing sides of things. Like, that's kind of our, our kind of mo. But so if you, if you feel like that's something, which I don't, I don't know what, what our audience's take on that would be or how they feel like they use their own platforms. But if you feel like we don't like, speak again, even these kinds of statements you have to make so carefully. But if you feel like we don't engage enough with what's like, culturally relevant or like current to today, part of that is on purpose in the hopes of trying to maintain unity and keep the gospel at the center of things. And then part of that I actually feel like conviction over, you know, evaluating why, why don't we engage in things that matter from like a standpoint of like, what's true and how to love people through really hard things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:30]:
So all that to say we wanted to have a conversation today about this because I think one of the saddest parts of today, and I'm not saying that today in this day and age is the only time that it's been this way, but it does really feel like everything that happens is a polarizing thing. There is nothing that can happen on planet Earth or even beyond right now that is not a polarizing, divisive issue. Yeah, there have been lots of disasters and tragedies that have taken place across the United States here in the past few days, here in the past few weeks. And not one of those things has been allowed its space to just be a tragedy. Everything is politicized and everything is, is like almost like sectioned off into sides immediately. And that's an evil that I think makes the enemy really, really happy that that's where we've landed as a world.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:27]:
Why do, okay, we were talking about this a little bit yesterday. Why do you think that is? Because I look back, I'm old enough to remember 9 11. Like I was in elementary school. And I remember the day that 911 happened. And I remember literally like the next day it was like the world was different in the U.S. like, I should say the U.S. was different in the U.S. but it was like people banded together.
Leslie Johnston [00:10:53]:
Now I know it's a different scenario. Like, I know it's a little different when like another place is attacking you. It's like you can band together a little bit more. But I, it's sad to me that like, we don't live in a culture anymore. Like I, I even thought with COVID I thought this really sucks that this is happening, but this might band everybody together. But it didn't. It tore everybody apart.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:17]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:18]:
And yeah, like, why do you, from your perspective, like, why do you think now nobody gets banded together. Like it, justice divides.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:26]:
I mean, like, spiritually. I think that if the enemy's strategy is disunity and one of the things that God calls for in his word really boldly and clearly is for unity, then that's going to be a constant fight probably till the end of time.
Leslie Johnston [00:11:44]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:45]:
And yeah, it is funny. Like that probably is the last memory that, that, that's probably the only event that we've seen in our lifetime where the thing that happened drew people close together versus sent them away into their separate sides and territories and stuff. I, I, I have to try to remember with stuff like this that everybody's motivated by their own definition of what love is.
Leslie Johnston [00:12:10]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:10]:
And truth is. And that you're passionate about what is truthful. Like everybody, everybody has that for themselves and they all have that, like, that fight in them to want to define what is true and to fight for love as best as possible. And, and so I have to try to remember with this that like, passion and a fight for justice can create in people emotions and responses that don't always align with like, what. How we see that we're supposed to engage with people biblically. And that's on both sides of things. I see Christians not respond well to things and I see non Christians not respond. Respond well to things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:55]:
I think it's all like misplaced passion and anger. But I have to try to fight to remember that at its core.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:02]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:03]:
I think everybody has their own placement of what is true and where truth lies and that will lead them into places that, yeah. Are different from each other.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:13]:
Yeah. I think it's really interesting. I think now we're living in a world where it's so much more divisive because of social media. And I don't say that's just the cop out answer, like, oh, social media is the worst. No. I think there's so many good things that come from it. But I think now we have this tool where people don't have to actually like, be face to face and have conversations with someone to understand why they're thinking what they're thinking. They can just blast it out on a story, on a post, on a TikTok, on a video, on a comment, and it's like people then jump to conclusions and they're instantly on the defense where most people, I mean, most normal people, I should say, who aren't falling in the crazy fringes, they might have a conversation with someone sitting down.
Leslie Johnston [00:13:59]:
Like, I'll give you a great example. So yesterday with all of the events that happened, I was talking to somebody and they have on the phone and they have a different, a little bit of a different view than I do. Like we don't align necessarily on everything. And before that I had a very like, kind of like what I thought about what happened and my thoughts on it and whatever. And I kind of went into that conversation being like, this is what I think. But I was way more apt to hear them out than I was watching someone's TikTok or Instagram story because I just go, I'm like, oh my gosh, you're just noise and you're just attacking me and this person now. It wasn't easy, which I Think this is a really key, important point that I think would really change things is you don't have to. Hearing someone out doesn't mean it's gonna necessarily change your view.
Leslie Johnston [00:14:58]:
I think we think all the time, well, if I hear somebody out, then, like, I'm gonna settle for what I think or what I believe. Like, no matter what side you're on, like, you don't want to hear the person out. Cause you don't want to have to go, well, this means that I'm compromising what I think is true. But to me, it was like, okay, I'm gonna hear this person out because it is different than me. I don't always do this. Right. But I'm glad I did yesterday because what happened was, is I sat with that for a little bit and I was like, I don't agree. I don't know why we can't get on the same page.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:33]:
But then today we had another conversation, and I was like, okay, I'm settled down a little bit. They're settled down a little bit. We can actually talk through. And we kind of figured out we're actually on the same page. Like, really, we're on the same page. We're trying to accomplish the same things. It's just that the avenues that we are doing don't necessarily line up.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:56]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:15:56]:
And I think you're totally right in what you said. It's like, not everybody. Some people are just plain evil. We're not talking about those people. We're talking about people who are like, I care about people. I care about love. I care about creating the best world that we can all live in. And unfortunately, when you're looking at two political parties, neither one is perfect.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:20]:
And they actually probably are somewhat trying to achieve some of the same things. But it's like, we can't see that we're both trying to achieve some of those things. Now, again, I'm not talking about fringe. I'm talking about people who are maybe are more in the middle. But yet we use these, like, political parties to divide us. That we won't even hear a person out, to maybe realize, wait, wait, wait. We might actually. It's like, when.
Leslie Johnston [00:16:46]:
This might be a horrible example. I'm just saying it. But it might be like when couples fight and they're trying to like, the enemy is not each other. The enemy is the problem. But instead of making the problem the enemy, they make each other the enemy. Yeah, that's kind of what I feel like is happening a lot of times, 100%.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:04]:
And at such a large scale that it, it feels like this almost like a rolling snowball. Like it's gaining momentum, it's gaining mass and that's harder to stop.
Leslie Johnston [00:17:13]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:13]:
I think you said something really wise about media. Like I think one of the reasons why this is a really dangerous time and climate is because media makes it to where everybody can pretend like an, like they're an expert on everything they want to.
Leslie Johnston [00:17:28]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:29]:
Time is not a factor. Right. Like you were talking about these conversations where you had them either in person or over the phone and they took time to have them. Right. Versus a media based conversation or a media based opinion. It can take as little or as no time as you want it to. Like it can be the fire of a button, it can be not even your words. You could literally chat GPT words and fire it off or whatever.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:54]:
Right. And there's just so much access to so many different points of view which I think when lies get like a megaphone, right then their damage is more widespread because it's not like just you and me sitting in a room and I'm telling you non truths and it's like okay, well if you heard them and believed them, you might pass them along to a few other people like telephone style. But we have a lot of people that are spreading non truths at a very like widespread.
Leslie Johnston [00:18:24]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:18:25]:
Mass platform like Instagram, social media, whatever it is. So all that to say I think there's a lot of danger in where we currently sit with media and what you just said about in person or at least like phone FaceTime conversation, it sort of like challenges some of those things. Cuz they all take time, they all involve you looking at a person. Like what people tend to do when these things happen, like Christ crises or tragedies happen and they feel very passionate about the tragedy because of whatever bend that they have their people's go to. As to what you go find some kind of a graphic with all these words that people have written, something that you agree with, something that kind of proves your point or what you think on the matter and you repost it and there's no face, there's no name, there's no personal experience attached to it. So it's just a graphic. And yeah, and that's really easy for people to get fired up about one way or the other because it's just words on a page. There's no person.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:27]:
Right. So when you engage with a person, it's a lot harder to come to that conversation and be like I'm against you. Yeah, As a person, because I actually am listening to you. I'm looking in your eyes, I'm hearing about your experiences that have led you up to this point. And yeah, I think that, but that's a dying form of conversation with where we live at. And something you just said sparked this. A lot of people I was kind of doing some work to put some thoughts that were in my brain into words that felt less jumbled up. But I think the going into conversation to win versus listen or hear.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:20]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:20]:
Is one of the reasons why a lot of conversations that you've experienced that did not go well. That's why they didn't go well because you're going in with like a winner's mindset versus a listening mindset. Or like, what if the goal of conversation wasn't complete agreement? What if the goal of conversation was more understanding?
Leslie Johnston [00:20:39]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:40]:
Because that might be where you things yesterday. You're like, okay, so it maybe, maybe the, the, the result was not complete agreement. We didn't, we didn't learn that we were 100 on the same page. But do I understand more of what makes. Because if you understand what makes a person think the way that they think.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:55]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:56]:
At least with that they can't be evil to you.
Leslie Johnston [00:20:59]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:00]:
They can't be categorized as like, yeah. An evil, hateful human being.
Leslie Johnston [00:21:05]:
Yes. Because you always, you always talk to people who are really hateful, like either side. I say, I say sides, but there's lots of different sides. But you always hear the people who are the most like hate filled or the most like, no, this is, this is right. And I'm not going to listen to the other person. They usually don't have any idea the shoes somebody else is walking in. And so I think that's number one is like, how can I have relationships with people where I can seek to understand why they think the way they think? Like I was asking that with the person I was talking to. It was like, okay, walk me down the road in your mind.
Leslie Johnston [00:21:47]:
Because sometimes we just put a stamp on someone and go, I disagree with them. They're totally wrong. And especially like as a Christian, sometimes you can be like, that's satanic, that's whatever. Which some stuff is. I'm not saying that stuff is not. But for the person who's maybe more in the middle, but they don't totally agree with you. Instead of just labeling them as something. Yeah, it's better at least I've found now to go, okay, walk me through why you think that.
Leslie Johnston [00:22:15]:
And like what are your life Experiences that give you that angle. Because you learn a lot about someone, and then. Then you can actually start to talk through. Like, when you're on the same page, you know what's going on in their situation. I also think an issue that we. Or that I'm seeing is, like, group think. Like, and I am so guilty of this. Like, a lot of times if I'm around people who seem smarter than me and they know more than me, I'm just like, oh, yeah, what they said.
Leslie Johnston [00:22:44]:
Like, yeah, same, same. Like, I totally agree with them. And I'm realizing that that is a really, really slippery slope. Like, if you are only friends with people who agree with you or people that you are agreeing with them because they're the majority and that's the way they think, that's a really dangerous place to be in.
Morgan May Treuil [00:23:05]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:23:06]:
Because, I mean, you look in the world and you're like, the world's gonna tell you to believe something. Your friends are gonna tell you to believe something. Your family like, it's important to go, okay, how do I. And I know it's cliche to be like, I have to have my own thoughts, and I've gotta do the research myself. I think you have to decide, like, what is gonna shape my thinking. Especially when it comes to when stuff like this happens. And it's like, if it's. I have the bent to be like, well, I'm just gonna agree with them because they seem smarter and more knowledgeable than I do or than I am.
Leslie Johnston [00:23:42]:
But then I've come to realize, like, okay, but now I'm seeing holes being poked in some of these things, and it's not all lining up. Or the world's telling me this, and I want to be, like, liked by the world, and I want to be accepted by these people. But then I start to go, but my. Like, the standards that I'm holding myself to or that I want to believe, the only way to do that is, like, really, like, what does my relationship with Jesus and what does the Bible say about all this? And it was interesting. I had a really good conversation today about, like, how would Jesus respond in this scenario? Or how would even Jesus be with people that disagree with him? And I think we forget that, like, he was grace and truth. Like, it feels like a lot of people love the grace side of Jesus. And they're like, well, but he would never say something that people would disagree. Or he would never make someone feel bad about their choices, or they would never.
Leslie Johnston [00:24:51]:
But then it's like, no, actually, like, if you do read the Bible. There's so many times that Jesus, I mean, he flipped tables. He was also against Pharisees, like, the religious people. He was telling people, like, if you're lukewarm, like, spit you out of my mouth. Like, Jesus was intense, but at the same time, he was also truth. Like, or he was truth, but he was also grace. And so then it's like, you've got the grace side that's like. But he didn't do this in a way where he was just trying to win everything.
Leslie Johnston [00:25:22]:
Like, it's just. It's so. It's so both sides. And I'm like, there's so much we can learn from that, which is very interesting.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:28]:
Yeah. I feel like you remember in Scripture, there's a. In this. This, again, maybe doesn't match exactly contextually with what we're talking about, but there's a place in Scripture where people are sort of disciplined or kind of corrected for saying, well, I follow Paul or I follow Cephas. They were like disciples, and they were Christians. Like, that was the thing that they had built their lives on. But they had this almost like a label that they put on themselves of like, I'm. I'm a disciple of Paul.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:58]:
That's like my way of doing things. Or I'm a disciple of Peter. That's my way of doing things. And. And they were corrected for it. And I think it goes to show, even within the Christian faith, even with people, that you. That you believe the same things as them. We have this natural bend towards picking a side and identifying with a certain kind of label.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:19]:
I think it makes us feel less on an island by ourselves. But you just said something really important. I think every human being is way too complex to perfectly fit under this one. One particular label. Right. Like, you're too complex in your beliefs. That's why saying, I follow Jesus is really the only safe label you can put on yourself, because his perspective was a little bit different than ours. We go through life trying to hold the balance between grace and truth, because we're commanded to hold that balance.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:49]:
He was the perfect embodiment of what was true. He was. He is truth in himself. He's the standard of it. And he was walking compassion and grace and mercy. So just in his very essence and in his being, he held both of those things. We don't have the ability to hold both of those things perfectly just in our being, but who we follow does have both of those things. So as we walk with the Holy Spirit, it's the instruction.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:15]:
It's the constant correcting too. Like, I think this is the part that, that I feel like we miss out a little bit on sanctification. Especially angry Christians tend to miss out on sanctification because they get frustrated with where somebody is in their process. But the whole thing with this side of heaven is that it's all in process. So you are not going to achieve the perfect balance of ministering with grace and truth while you're here on planet Earth. You're constantly fighting for the balance of grace and truth.
Leslie Johnston [00:27:46]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:46]:
And with the Holy Spirit, you're constantly asking yourself, God, am I walking in the perfect balance of grace and truth? And where I'm not, can you correct me? Right. And, and I think that that's an ever changing, ever moving, kind of target. Not because Jesus is ever changing or ever moving, but because the world is complicated and messy and we are humans with flesh on. And so it just makes it really tricky. Yeah, but I want to. I want to. And that, that's really the point of this conversation. Right, Is the idea of both grace and truth.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:20]:
Because again, if you, if you believe in Jesus and you are a citizen of heaven first, and then the United States second, or, you know, Canada second, or wherever you live, Australia second, then your first priority, if, if you profess to be a follower of Jesus, your first priority in how you engage with culture, current events, evil, is how do I approach this? With an equal balance of caring passionately for both truth to be told, because truth is loving, and also grace in how truth is told. Because grace is a huge part of what truth is, and grace and compassion is a huge part of how people are even willing to hear what truth is. And so I just wanted to first of all encourage kind of both sides of that. If you feel like you are, you're a justice person, which, by the way, we should actually be celebrating the fact that people are bent so differently towards different things because I think it's actually evidence of your spiritual gifts. It's evidence of how God's major personality to affect kingdom work. If, like my husband Benji is really justice oriented and sometimes it gets him like into like trouble. Like he's, he's so excited about justice that like, motivates him for sure, more than anything.
Leslie Johnston [00:29:43]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:44]:
And I am motivated by justice too, but my heart and my personality type is also wired a little bit differently in which I feel like I'm a little more like compassion, more like middle of the road understanding than he is. And while sometimes those two things bump up against each other, what they should do. If celebrated healthily, those two things should actually be like, man, I'm so glad that the kingdom has people that are so justice oriented.
Leslie Johnston [00:30:10]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:10]:
And I'm so glad the kingdom has people that are so mercy and compassion oriented because those things really should meet in the middle. That's why when God talks about the body of Christ, it's like there's toes and there's ankles and there's wrists and there's eyeballs because everybody serves a different function. Yeah, but I think we've gotten into this like, really dangerous territory where when somebody possesses a different attribute or a different passion than we do, we almost like cast them out as like, well, they shouldn't belong to the body, but no, if we miss them, then we're missing the ability to see or the ability to walk, you know, And I, I know it's way more complicated than that because what, what people who maybe are a little bit more like radical on these beliefs would say is, yeah, but you can't be a part of the same body as someone who disagrees fundamentally on what is true. And yes, that, that is, that is true. And it's important to fight for truth.
Leslie Johnston [00:31:05]:
Yeah. It's just so hard. Cause like, I, I would say I lean. I don't even actually know where I lean. I feel like I'm right in the middle. Like I can go justice if I'm with people who are rallying me up about justice stuff. Like even Benji, I'm like, yeah. And then I can lean compassion when I know someone's story.
Leslie Johnston [00:31:27]:
And so I definitely can lean both ways.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:29]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:31:30]:
I think none of what you just talked about can be achieved if we all think we're just sitting up in our ivory tower of like, perfection. No, I think it's just so funny to like watch people and what they post and what they talk about, like they have it all together. And I'm like, newsflash. You first of all, don't know the whole story of anything. You actually don't know everything. You don't even like our most, even our smartest, like, most well read politician, whoever, you actually don't know. Only I know it sounds like a confidence. Only God really knows the whole story and the whole, like how everything fits together and how it works and the full picture of everything.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:16]:
But yet we act like. I think that's the most frustrating part is like we're watching not only ourselves do this, but others. And it's this. I'm right. I sit up in my tower of perfection and I'M looking down on everybody who disagrees with me.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:32]:
It's a pride, humility issue.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:33]:
It totally is.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:34]:
Which has been been the case with the Fall since the beginning.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:40]:
The beginning, like, yeah, since literally the fall.
Morgan May Treuil [00:32:42]:
And the desire to know, like, I know the most.
Leslie Johnston [00:32:47]:
Gosh, it's just. It makes me so mad at, like, the Enemy because he just, he's like, doesn't even have new material. It's like, oh, I just imagine him sitting there being like, oh, I don't have to come up with new content. These people are so stupid. They will just blame each other.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:03]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:03]:
Each other is not even the problem. And they make it about what it's not about 100%. I just think if we all walked into whatever conversations, even our thinking, and just go, maybe I don't know the entire story, no matter where you sit.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:21]:
Yep.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:22]:
Now, I'm not asking you to, like, not, like, believe like what you biblically believe, obviously, and we'll talk on that in a second, but, like, just going, maybe I don't know the whole story, just even that, like, just calms down your nervous system enough to be like, oh, I could. I could, like, listen to somebody else. Yeah. And I can understand them. And I don't have to agree with it, but, like, we can hear each other out.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:47]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:33:47]:
It's just when we go, I have it all together. And also, usually those people who are the ones who you might be frustrated by because they're so, like, intense and they just think they're so right. Usually those aren't. Those are the people. They're holding other people to a standard that they don't even live by.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:05]:
Right.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:05]:
Like, they, they're. They're holding a perfection standard for other people that they don't live by.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:13]:
Right.
Leslie Johnston [00:34:13]:
So it's like if you're frustrated with what you're seeing on the Internet, just know, like, we're all just a bunch of hypocrites, honestly, walking around trying to. Trying to do our best, maybe. But, like, at the end of the day, it's like none of us are smart enough to know everything. We're not going to be educated enough to figure out every scenario and how the world should operate and every tiny.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:35]:
Little thing or experienced enough in life to know the extent of every single person's experiences. Right. I think that if a posture of humility and understanding were to be something that we, we kind of embodied as a nation, this would, this would all feel far less hostile. Because I don't. I don't think that a posture of Humility and, and, and like putting off pride means that you forfeited what is true or that you're unwilling to stand up for something. I think it means that you have a listening ear first and foremost, which fills you with greater compassion. And number two, it's like the, the general awareness of I'm not, I'm not God. Yes, we are not God.
Morgan May Treuil [00:35:23]:
So at the end of the day, we don't fully know and we need to look to God. Yes, but you said something important. I want to like kind of give a biblical outline because I think, I think the, our goal of this conversation would be you would leave more readily able to engage with people who think differently than you. And that goes for people who are actively walking in relationship with people who think differently than you do, which we think everybody should be actively walking in relationship.
Leslie Johnston [00:35:52]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:35:52]:
With people who think differently than you. But I also think this would be a good heart check for the people that maybe you don't walk in relationship with personally, but they're the ones that are like firing you up in your chest as you're scrolling and looking. You know, I think that's, that's part of this too. So first things first. Truth is, is important. And you are called by God in scripture to stand firm for what is true. And true is actually what. What is true usually gets the bad rap for not being loving.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:24]:
And that's actually not the case. That's not true. Right. So if Jesus says in John 14, I'm the way, the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father except through me. That means that there is a definite standard of what is true. And knowing what is true is the difference between life and death. So when you've got these people that are really truth motivated, they can handle that truth and wield it in not such a great way in terms of their communication. But the fight for what is true is actually way more loving than you think it is because it's about life or death with the Father or not with the Father.
Leslie Johnston [00:37:02]:
When you look at the world right now and it's like we have gone away from truth, especially like the truth that's written in scripture. We've gone away from that. And you look at our world and our world has gone downhill.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:17]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:37:17]:
So it's like the only thing that you can build your life on if you want a loving, truth filled, full, you know, a life that really counts and matters and is going in a good direction. The Bible is the only thing you can put your life on.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:36]:
Totally.
Leslie Johnston [00:37:37]:
You can't Put it on all your like policies and all this. I mean some of those, obviously they're all important. But it's like that the Bible really is the only thing that you can stick with. So it's like dig into your Bible and figure out what is, how is the way to live. Like what is, what's the best way to live and what is the way that is biblically like how the way that Jesus was and how he walked and how he dealt with these things and what truth actually looks like. Because the further we've gone away, it's proof, the further we've gone away from the Bible, the more of the mess the world is.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:11]:
100%, 100%. And when like in Jude, Jude 3, there's the instruction to contend for the faith. So I don't think anyone, I hope nobody ever thinks that as we talk or I mean whatever it feels like, that truth is a passive thing. Truth is not a passive thing. Truth is an active thing that needs to be contended for and fought for. Because like you said, if the world is just, if the world goes away from what God says in his Word and the world is getting worse because of it, then we're complicit and sitting back. If we're content to just let it go in that direction.
Leslie Johnston [00:38:49]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:50]:
And not fight for something that's right. So I think that's really smart. The second thing though with truth is that it is instructed to be spoken with love. So Ephesians 4:15, rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head into Christ. Colossians 4, verse 5. Walk in wisdom towards outsiders, making the best use of your time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt. 2nd Timothy 2.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:17]:
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents. So I love that like in, in one, in one instance you have the instruction to contend for the faith. In another instance, same Bible, so not they're not canceling each other out. In another instance you have patiently enduring evil. So part of wisdom with how you handle both truth and grace is that you contend and you fight for what is right. But you also show patience and level headedness as evil continues. Because we all know how the story ends, right? Totally evil doesn't win. But it's all going to look a lot worse before it gets better.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:57]:
So we shouldn't be surprised by the direction that godless people go. Yes, it shouldn't surprise us that it's not going very well.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:04]:
Yeah. And it doesn't mean you go into panic mode of this was never supposed to happen.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:09]:
No.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:10]:
Like, this is the story that's written, unfortunately.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:12]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:13]:
And the Bible literally talks about how, like, Jesus was condemned. Like, why do you think you wouldn't be?
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:21]:
Right.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:22]:
And what. You're living in a world that is not going to love you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:25]:
100.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:26]:
So it's like, that's a good thing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:29]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:29]:
If the world isn't loving you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:31]:
Yes. And I think one of the greatest lessons in compassion that we get is literally Jesus up on the cross, Luke 23. And he's praying for the people that just put him there. Father, forgive them. Because they don't know what they're doing.
Leslie Johnston [00:40:44]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:45]:
And should just be everywhere. That should be everywhere right now. Yeah, it should be everywhere right now. Because if you. If you so strongly believe in the truth of what you believe and what you're saying, and somebody near you thinks differently than you, it's like, okay, then you're in great company with your Savior because he's felt all these same things. But he wasn't motivated. He wasn't on the cross cursing the people who put them there. He was on the cross patiently enduring evil, understanding that they don't know what they're doing because their eyes have not been enlightened to see what's true.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:22]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:22]:
So instead of being angry with them for not being enlightened, I'm. I'm gonna pray for them that they would actually experience God.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:30]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:31]:
They don't know what they're doing. God have mercy on them. And it's funny that, like, it's. It's the perfect mod. It's the it that is like, that literally should be put.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:38]:
It should be everywhere. They don't know what they're doing because we. None of us do.
Morgan May Treuil [00:41:41]:
None of us do.
Leslie Johnston [00:41:42]:
The. The most extreme sides on either side. Like, if someone is using the Bible to hurt somebody in a way that's not. In a way that Jesus would. That also is where it comes into play too, where it's like, oh, they don't know what they're doing. Like, they're not remembering that Jesus was full of grace and mercy. Which, again, we also need to remember when, like, if you are viewing your life and the way you view things through the lens of the Bible, you have to remember that, like, God still has grace for those people who don't agree with you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:17]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:17]:
They may never change their minds. I think we all think, oh, if I just talk to Somebody enough, they're gonna change their mind. And it's like, you know what? They might not change their mind, but like, that still doesn't mean that maybe eventually they come to know. There's. There's just so much grace that God has.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:33]:
Yeah.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:34]:
That he's not sitting down. I mean, he's not going well. Yeah. That person that's just too far gone, like, can't reach them.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:41]:
No.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:41]:
It's like. No. There's so much grace for people.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:43]:
Yes.
Leslie Johnston [00:42:44]:
But then there's. Yeah, there's. You're right. It's just they don't know what they're doing.
Morgan May Treuil [00:42:49]:
I know we have a hard stop, but I. I think that that's a great point to. To end on. And it just strikes me, okay, if God says in his word that his desire is that all people would be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth, that means there's not a single person who you oppose or who opposes you that God's not after their salvation. So that makes them officially not an enemy towards you because God's after their salvation. Number two, if you feel like that person is evil or an instrument for evil, I still think the word of God is true, that God is still after their salvation. But God is also really good with justice. So I don't believe that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:29]:
I. I think God has a long game going with. With. With justice and good versus evil.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:35]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:36]:
And we can trust him to be the ultimate carrier out of that. We still contend for what is just, but we don't need to be.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:46]:
We're not the condemners. We're not the condemners. That's not our seat that we get to sit in. That's not our role.
Morgan May Treuil [00:43:51]:
And thank God because you wouldn't do it very well.
Leslie Johnston [00:43:53]:
Yeah. Now there's a difference between condemning someone and giving them truth in love or calling out untruth. Calling out untruth. I think that is biblical. Jesus modeled it. You can't sit here and say that Jesus didn't model that. So that is truth, and that is truth and love. But you're right.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:10]:
At the same time, it's like there's so much misuse of feeling like you can condemn people. And yeah, no one's too out of reach for God to reach, but that's his job.
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:22]:
So it's like a good scratch of the surface.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:26]:
Scratch the surface. But that. That was good for me to think about. And it's good for everyone through.
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:31]:
And even if you don't necessarily.
Leslie Johnston [00:44:32]:
And if you're listening to this. And you're like, oh, my gosh, they're totally talking about me. We're not.
Morgan May Treuil [00:44:36]:
No. And also, everybody, if you listen to that and you think, man, I don't agree with any of that, it's like, okay, okay, I hope you hear this conversation as, like, we should be taking steps to have conversations like this that are less about getting the entire conversation right. Like, our goal is not to get the conversation right. The goal is to. To start having a conversation that felt motivated by grace and truth. And so hopefully that inspires your own conversations like that. So you actually don't have. You don't have to, like, fully agree or disagree.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:03]:
No. And I used to think if I was going to be informed, that I would have to just listen to all of these voices of people who are political and get all these different angles. And the more I'm realizing, the more I'm like, okay, very smart to be informed of. No, I'm not talking about, like, the news. Like, you should know what's happening in the world. But to me, like, if you're not in your Bible, figuring out how to deal with this situation first from that standard and that lens, it's gonna be like an empty chase. Like, you're just. You're gonna change what you think all the time, and it's gonna be your wishy washy.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:41]:
And it's, like, so true. We're spending so much time trying on TikTok and YouTube, trying to understand and trying to figure out what our view is, and it's like, figure out what your view is from the Bible. Like, you can't go wrong with that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:45:54]:
So great. Here it is.
Leslie Johnston [00:45:57]:
All right, we love you guys. Well, we'll see you next Monday for probably a lighter episode. But this was good. Good for me, and I hope it was good for you guys.
Morgan May Treuil [00:46:05]:
Same here. All right, bye.
Leslie Johnston [00:46:07]:
Bye.